Doc 0000190597

.;I"'· A j',.~_ ': r 25 February 1952 :',\\: ...... ' t-fi ... ;; •', A a Interview With. 1. On ·C interview wi ~- The conversation . ~The interview was laid on through the Contact Branch and ..• A · · introductions wore macle through.--of the Now York City Con ' ~·· .. , : ~ . ~, . .,. , '. .. . - l . " -;,. ' ' . - tact Office. No difficulties. were encountered in this matter• c I ,,, . ' .~. ~ :. ' • I 1 ' ' ·" ' . 2. ~is a professional hypnotist of exceptionally good reputation. He apparently has other means and has been a pro fessional nnd accountant. His apartment is in a deluxe engine~r e' . and is in exceptionally good apartme~ (! taste. __..resides there with his sister. · · · · . ~ t:' ·, .' .... J, is about six feet tall, wears horn-rim glasses,':.~·~··_.-;._'~~ has a strong, agressive look, and, physically, is quite impressive. . _ ~-J·· • • He appears highly intelligent, was courteous, amiable, and co-opera- Before getting to cases, the writer fenced with ~ ~t. approximately three-quarters of an hour, talking ~ ~ror ,_ generally about hypnosis and not disclosing positive security interests. ~ After establishing in the writer's mind that~~as competent and thoroughly understood the meaning of secrecy, the writer opened . ~····.,up and discussed positive matters. Set out below are a series of .· :-~'. · ~~ · · questions and answers ver, in substance, the details of the · ' ~- (! : ,. ... ".. r-::- interview wi · ... I, ~ ~. Ql What are your experienc~s in general with hypnotism? Al 15 years. e w I am not teaching hypnotism individuals hypnotism '~:'j/ ! .. :~"; J · o ~ ' i·:·.;' Qs •. What ' ·do you'' think,". did hypnotiBm' play. in the- ' !. "' • .~ .' - and other show trials by the USSR and their •,1.;\ ~. ....T l," \ ',\;~, .·',""" ,, ~ .... .. !··~:: .· '.~·::. . .. ' . ', . ·. .' ~ At possibly combined with ,:l· t .... ~i.: ·I dureo!l, and possibly drugs, is how the "confos3ion:J" were brought nbout. I have long been interested in these trials , . and I believe it entirely possible to bring those The image displays a graphic with a large, vault-like door on the left and text on the right. The vault door is intricate, with multiple wheels, dials, and locking mechanisms, rendered in shades of gray and highlighted with a bluish glow. The text, in white, explains that the "document was obtained from The Black Vault, an online database of declassified government documents," specifically mentioning the "MKULTRA/Mind Control Collection" and providing a URL for access. There are no photographs, handwritten annotations, official stamps, forms, diagrams, tables, or redacted content visible in the image. The document is a typed report with handwritten annotations at the top. The annotations include a date "25 February 1952" and what appears to be a classification marking "A/B, III, 6, 7". The text itself is structured as an interview, with questions numbered and marked with "Q:" and answers marked with "A:". There are numerous redactions throughout the document, indicated by blacked-out rectangular areas, obscuring names, locations, and specific details of the interview. The formatting suggests a formal report, likely related to an intelligence or investigative matter, given the redactions and the interview structure. .· '.~·::. . .. ' . ', . ·. .' ~ At possibly combined with ,:l· t .... ~i.: ·I dureo!l, and possibly drugs, is how the "confos3ion:J" were brought nbout. I have long been interested in these trials , . and I believe it entirely possible to bring those things :'1.:, , ;;. :·:··."_.about through these techniques. ·It would take a great deal ·.~ . ' '; ·. of continuous application nnd study of the individual .to produce these results but the enemy has plenty of time and is capable of using any methods. Q: Can you information from an individual, willing or ~btnin unwilling, by hypnotism? ':'·• ... ·<.>.(:Az·.~Definitely, yes. Many ot the medical.caaos I work on are · .. · involv!!d in obtaining pl!rsona.l, intinlate information and through hypnotism, I have been quite successful in obtaining this. If an individual to co-operate with hypnosis, refus~s the doctors with whom I work use drugs, always sodium amytal • . . Qa. Do you think that this system would be useful in obtaining I i . , ... information from a recalcitrant, obstinate, and entirely ... ···~~~-~··\· .. unco-operative individual? :·.· · ·. . ·. ·· ., .:· · · ·.· · - ···~· ·• :. As:··· Yes, definitely.· That is the only way to approach this· . .: ,.~ I type of individual, but even at that you would have to study your individual psychologically and the matter would great skill. All people have to be approached in requir~ different as far as goes, but if you mann~rs hypnoti~m could gain their confidence or at indicate so, they l~ast ..... would clearly understand ;you were not hostil!t to them and ·, .. \ · • :- r•··;: -~-~ · · y·our battle would be more than half von .... ,. ·~ i .• ·~ - .. ,. •.' , ,1· ·J·..:...'.}' ;..,,_, ·.' ... .. .. . .. •. . , ' I ~·!'" .. :.Q: How far do you think individuals could be controlled by', hypnosis? · · .·, -~·· Az 'Ibis is a very difficult subject. Post-hypnotics will ·; ............ ....-. last twenty years aod will be very strong if re-enforced . . from time to time • However • if direct control is wanted, and particularly without re-enforcement, perhaps twelve hours would be the most you could expect and even then a possibility exists that This page appears to be a typed transcript of an interview or a question-and-answer session, presented in a standard question-and-answer format with "Q:" and "A:" preceding each segment. There are no photographs, handwritten annotations, official stamps, forms, diagrams, schematics, organizational charts, or tables present on this page. However, the text itself discusses topics related to hypnosis, drug use (sodium amytal and pentothal), and obtaining information from individuals, which are consistent with the themes of the MKUltra program. There is a page number "-2-" at the bottom, indicating it is part of a larger document. Post-hypnotics will ·; ............ ....-. last twenty years aod will be very strong if re-enforced . . from time to time • However • if direct control is wanted, and particularly without re-enforcement, perhaps twelve hours would be the most you could expect and even then a possibility exists that the person under hypnosis might suddenly be awakened ·by some external stimulus. Qz Have you ever had any experience with drugs? Az Yes, many times. I have worked with doctors using sodium l 1 ~~~;!;::~..:.;~\;.:.; :;·~·.~;\·"':·~~~;\'~:~ ~.:·:: anytal and pentothal and have obtained h;ypnotic control .~~ .' J.t, I' .. } t"!i . - ' ·. ~ ... ~~ ' I . ( . .. . . after the drugs were U3ed. In fact, many tho drugs .t.' ti~es ' were used for the purpose of obtaining hypnotic control. ~"\. :~~·. ,_.,,. . ..... . . ' . ! ' · t , , , •. · ' • ~ ( Q: · tt/ere 1mr other drugs used? Do you know any "new" drugs or !-..,.... .. . are there any "wonder" drugs that can be used in this busi ness? A: f.To. I have known doctors to try other drup,s but they do not luwe e.ny success and almost without exception in my work, sodium amytal and pentothal are the weapons used. If I hnd to tackle a case, tough ;md umdlling, I would rely on. sodium amytal. I do not know or any "wonder" ... ·, drugs. ·I do not heliAve they exist and none of the psy- . · · chiatriets and doctors I vork vitb use anything 'but those I have mentioned. Q: Have you ever heard of hypnosis being used in connection with electroshock? I. :· . >; ~;: Aa No. I am familiar with the electroshock convulsion and coma 'but I have never attempted to obtain hypnotic con- ~i ·.' ···1 trol thereafter and have never heard of anyone doing this. However, some of my friends who are psychiatrists con sta.ntly use electroshock and I have complete access to their work. I shall make some ~xperiments along these line-s in the near future and when I see you again, we will discuss the results of this • ... - ,, Q: Are there any individualo you might who would be kn~ ·. ) . tJort.hwhile in contacting along these lines? ·. · .. :. This image is a scanned page from a declassified CIA document, likely a transcript or report, containing a significant amount of machine-printed text. There are several large, black redactions obscuring portions of the text, predominantly in the lower half of the page, indicating sensitive information. A handwritten "A" and "C" appear in the left margin, potentially indicating a person or section. A page number "-3-" is visible at the bottom center. The overall appearance suggests a formal document with sections for questions and answers, possibly part of an interview or investigation. some ~xperiments along these line-s in the near future and when I see you again, we will discuss the results of this • ... - ,, Q: Are there any individualo you might who would be kn~ ·. ) . tJort.hwhile in contacting along these lines? ·. · .. :. is perhaps one o outstandi country, thoroughly drugo underst.anrl~ quainted with IllY work. As far as hypnotists ar" concerned, I do not b~lieve there are five competent professional hypnotists in the U.S. today end I nothing but con ha~e tempt for the professor who talks about hypnosis. colleg~ Only the professional who hypnosis in front of Clio lu~nrlle the puhlic nnd on a large scalP. is capable of really giving first-rato advice or information on hypnotic work. ... .. ' .. ; 'be willing to act as a consultant to this Agency? t• as fully informed that. the writer was no ~aking '.·*•- -·· ....... ----~·------···· ·-~--··- I ' • ,',··;! . f ~ .,. ~ f, ~· ., I i . ; "' ~~.;, ·, ' '" . ··t ~ · . offers and in no poaitlon to recruit personnel. This offer l-1 •. \(' was being made in r,eneral terms.) :. ;i··· .. •· A: Ye~, I fe!'Jl that we aro at war and if I can be of any help - whatsoever, I be glad. to give my tine. If you need sh~ll •. roe on any given case, I will be glad to cone. Would you r.ccept. pupil3 for pri Yate coaching? (Same explanation as nbove.) - A& T think I could train individual or at least give Y~s. ~ . ' . . . : ~ . him a suhstantial background .in two w-eeks, working out with · - him three tlm~3 a week. · Qs Do you have nn7 ideas that hypnotism could be used as a weapon? A: Yes, I have thought about this often. It could certainly . be used. in obtnining inform~tion from recalcitrant people ...I '. '• { ...~ :'· particularly with druge • Furthernore, 1 t can be used as ·· .. -'· - a moral~ factor and in addition, it could be used as are- .~;.. .. ·" cruitine source for r.!pecinl typcn of work• I 'Jill explain ·' ) :i I• the lant two. You have largo D.P. camps in Europe and Asia. You to entertain these The page contains a Q&A transcript in typed text, discussing the potential uses of hypnosis. There are no photographs, handwritten annotations, or stamps visible on this page. The text is densely packed, filling most of the page, with some instances of redacting in the form of random white speckles. No visual evidence of experimental procedures, equipment, or facilities is present. as ·· .. -'· - a moral~ factor and in addition, it could be used as are- .~;.. .. ·" cruitine source for r.!pecinl typcn of work• I 'Jill explain ·' ) :i I• the lant two. You have largo D.P. camps in Europe and Asia. You to entertain these A good professional hav~ p~nple. hypnotist ia a good cntorta1.mn·. Unin[~ ma.ss hypnotic methods, he could driV'f! homeo: thouchts tb11t uould be of great benefit to our side. Individuals that r,ained control of through h~ hypnotic influence could te.convortcd to strong supporters ,. I. ':··'·or our vie'olpoint through S1lggestion. ·The opposite of this, ·. •• •• -!' . .. of course, would hold true. Furtheremore, along these lines, . , ... a good hypnotist running hypnotic shows for entertainment ·· ,. ''·i 'Jauld pick up a great many suejects, oome of -hon might be· .. exceptionally good subjects for .These subjects could us~ i...'..· ~'­ easily be tabbed and put to our use. ~ ~: H11.ve you 9Ver 'te"!n able to produce hypn."Jsis iiithout nn in dividual19 kno•led&~? At Yes, throur,h the relaxing technique nnd on occa!lions r:1r~ ro:-en abl'! to produce hypn-;,tism J.t:.:tlnst a pnr:>on's will. Howev!:r, you cannot count on t.hl.> and t0 at. tempt to at tack an individual who did not want to hypnotized alone would b~ be almo9t an impossible tnsk. In. that type of case, I would · use sodium amytal and/or sodium pentothal. '. ·: ~ - ... .. ,. '·, ~; -4- ~ . ~ ; "•! ·\ . . ~.·· . ' : ', .. ·~' : ... .. , ... ; ' . .l " , t ., : . f' ·i> Q; Do you have any special techniques that you think are ·,:i· :: valuable? ·.·• Ac · All techniques are valuable. I use about eighteen dif ferent approaches to individuals ranging from fear to anxiety, to deception, etc., etc. All individuals are different and a hypnotist always studies subjects hi~ carefully, psychologically and otherwise, before attempting hypnosis with them. Only skilled professional hypnotists have proper training and work at it often enough to be skilled hypnotists. I would be glad to show you all my techn . i ques when we have time .t o discuss them. . There is a peculiar and somewhat dangerous in te~hnique ,. .. volving pressure on the carotid artery. technique Th~ of This document appears to be a transcript of an interview or a question-and-answer session regarding hypnosis techniques. Visually, it is primarily text-based. There are no photographs, diagrams, or tables present. The document does contain some handwritten annotations, specifically on the right side of the page, which appear to be related to the document's handling or classification. There are also several stamps, though their exact content is mostly illegible due to the image quality, they appear to be related to document classification and routing. One stamp at the bottom center reads "-5-", indicating a page number. The text itself is printed and appears to be from a typewriter. at it often enough to be skilled hypnotists. I would be glad to show you all my techn . i ques when we have time .t o discuss them. . There is a peculiar and somewhat dangerous in te~hnique ,. .. volving pressure on the carotid artery. technique Th~ of using pressure on this artery is largely a matter of timing. Pressure in right place cuts off the flow th~ of blood to the brain, apparently causing R rapid coma like condition -- during this condition, hypnotic control can sometimes be obtained. The technique is not oasy to .. ' .. learn. I have tried it only_ a few times but it has been '· . i. 1' l ·:~ successful. · · ' ; ~. · · · ~. ' """'' .-tl... ·.~ - I Q: How effective are post-hypnotics; over what distances and time can they be effective? A& Properly used post-hypnotics will last twenty years. They can be made more effective by ro-onforcement from time to I • ' , .. ~ . .. ~. : ;I ;..;- , . . .'· , :. . -: . . · . 't t i r m av e e . l o P r o s d t- is h t y a p n n c o e t ic aw s ay a re fr o n m o t th u e f e p c e t r e s d on a w t ho a l p l la b c y e d ti m th e e o p r ost 1 r · • • hypnotic. As a rule, post-hypnotics should be 100% effective ..... 1.· •• in good subjects and they would certainly be more effective __ · than a person operating under direct hypnotic control, since . ;..r_- :.;- ~ •.. a person in a hypnotic trance can suddenly be brought out of ~:-~.\. it for various reasons,particularly after bours,while ~any .,'._·. '. a post-hypnotic will always remain strong. :.;.:- ~· Q: Can individuals be made to do things under hypnosis that they would not do otherwise? A: This is a muchly debated subject and, in my opinion, as a general rule, no individual will do his moral nnythin~ again~t code or upbringing under a hypnotic tranc!! they would not do otherflise. Howov~r, it should be remomborod do things under hypnosis that they would not do otherwise? A: This is a muchly debated subject and, in my opinion, as a general rule, no individual will do his moral nnythin~ again~t code or upbringing under a hypnotic tranc!! they would not do otherflise. Howov~r, it should be remomborod that 1--y tho pro- per type of conditioning and a very intelligont and understanding . .. . . . .. : approach using psychology, individuals could be taught to do · .r·:·:\, :··'"''?:;'anything including murder, suicide, etc. This would be diffi-. · .... , , .... , . ,·. ,. cult, but I be~~~.~- i,t. coul~. b_e;done ,bY_ -~ C~feful process of )..... , ~ : .. :~· \ \~ :f.. conditioning a while under a hypnotic per:Jon[flyr:holo~icnlly .. ·- stnt~, setting a stage for the act as it vere. I do not have much faith in teat experiments in colleges because they are, by their very nnture 1 experiments or test~. I do believe i • . . • '. t.~.r1· that you could carry out acts that ~auld be again3t an in dividual's moral !oelings if thay wero rightly, psychologi or ca.llr conditioned. course, it 1rould not be as :m1ch of a probl~n to hav9 an ir:r:1ornl p':'rson com.-...it an immoral act or a murderer comMit a murder, aince by their nature they would have no hesitancy to do such a thing in their normal life. , . r~ ·~ :, · ,; .• .~. . .: · · . ~ . . . ·; ... . ~ ·.· ; . A .., ·. . I c u d m o s t n a o n t c e k s n , c r b • u o t f I an do y d fe ru e g l s th th at a · t th ~ do this n nd u n o d t e h r e a r n y fa m ci i r l - iar - ~· . c:;.ses in which individuals confesaed to cri111es vhich they ·•. ·could not have possibly comrJitted WlS hrought about t-y hyp nosis, as I mentioned ·before, and lengthy psychological con ditioning. The question of course, is one thnt has its~lf, been debated a great many times hut is difficult to actually arrange a "practical" test. I. ~ . .- Qt The page is a scanned document with typed text, likely from an interview or transcript. There are no photographs, stamps, or forms visible. There are a few instances of handwritten annotations, including a large "D" and a "-6-" at the bottom, likely indicating a page number. Content is partially obscured by black ink redactions in several locations, obscuring specific words or phrases within the text. One noticeable redaction appears to be a single word within two lines of text. The document is a typed page with text formatted into questions and answers, discussing hypnotic control and its applications. Several vertical black rectangles, likely redacted content, appear along the right margin. There are also small, unclear markings and a smudge of black ink at the top center of the page. The number "7" is visible at the bottom center, suggesting it is a page number. No photographs, stamps, forms, diagrams, or explicit visual evidence of experimental procedures are present. ·•. ·could not have possibly comrJitted WlS hrought about t-y hyp nosis, as I mentioned ·before, and lengthy psychological con ditioning. The question of course, is one thnt has its~lf, been debated a great many times hut is difficult to actually arrange a "practical" test. I. ~ . .- Qt Do you have any special techniques or ideas for detecting 1!-· I ' - an individual is under hypn?sis or not? ·A: Yes, I h'lve several method3 for detecting this nnd if I see · you again, I will go over them in detail with you. There are certain tests that I make which I think are very effective. Along thi.s .<.lame line, I al3o use several methods for detecting wh~n individuals aro faking or play acting with me or feigning ... ·,, ,, . ·,,: ~n~sirh. .. , .. . , . . . ·.: . >.··. ,• ··: ~f . , •: .... ····- Qs Do you have any system for detecting ~ood hypnotic subjects, particularlY' not along tho lines of stage entertainments? ~-ri .... A: No particular system, but thl!rP. are certain that t~chniques ., ... I apply ln looking for good subjects. Most of these are . t ,.. I• ...... rasically standard tests and are, undoubtedly, known to you. (Reference was made to standard tests for suggestibility, all known to the writer.) In thi3 connection, when I s~e you again, I will show you aome of the methods I use along these lines. Qt Can hypnosis be brok'!n by onot.h.,r hypnotist 1.f specific instructions have been given to a subject to prevent this'? ., A.: I ha.ve been able to do this, but this is not eas'/ and ra- ',· ~· .. >'·.~·.-·.;...,.'A:···.,··!~;;· quires a great deal ·or. time .and effort, but· I believe that~ ·.'·I' . (' . , J 4 . : , .,..\, ( . 1 ', • ,;1. '; ))\1. . ~ (•; · ~ '•. j•• . . - . ~ ,_.,. , . th~t. nl1no~t. nny hypn<Jt.tr con1.ro1 cnn be dnt~ct~<l nncl - :r-.~ ; .._,. hrolc!"n if sufficient tlw1 nnd a carP.ful p~ychologica.l approach aro used. ·t.' '. . '· ... \ ~. Q: DoM ~lcohol ns9ist in tho obt~inlng of h_ypn,Jsis in a subject? A: I do mt teliovn it. helps. There ~re WHlY other morG import.11nt nids to hypnosis thl:ln a social dr.l.nk or t'~>TO. Tho tlw1 nnd a carP.ful p~ychologica.l approach aro used. ·t.' '. . '· ... \ ~. Q: DoM ~lcohol ns9ist in tho obt~inlng of h_ypn,Jsis in a subject? A: I do mt teliovn it. helps. There ~re WHlY other morG import.11nt nids to hypnosis thl:ln a social dr.l.nk or t'~>TO. Tho first of these I believe would be anxiety, anoth~r would be fear, third might. b1 oxha!Js\..ion. However, in ·· • ~ • . ) . ol ··- ~:. , · many cases, alcohol does make indi.viduals more pliable 1 • ~ ,. . 1 ., .. ' and in that sense N.ght h9ve so!llo results. Q: Do you hnve any mntE'rinl t.h:t t.. you think 111.ight be of in terest to me along these linos? AI Yes. As you know, an individual who has bo~n hypnotized , makes a very excellent courier. They can be glvon messages . .. · , •.1 • :. ·: . while under hypno5is which they themselves do not know nn:i only an irxHv1dual kno\tring th<3 coclo can get this message ·- · · ~-·· · :-·; ·' from this courier. Even assunling that. th9 post-hypnotlc control could be broken or t.he individua.l hypnotized, it could still be protected perhaps as follows: A person could 1:-e regressed to a certain time and date and then given the message and unless the person who subsequently gained control of "I , ...oc." . the subject regressed the subject to the cor rect date and time set out, he could not get 1• 1 ,' ~ ! , I the message. Even more secure would be to move the individual forward• If he were moved from , ... thirty years of age to thirty-five years of ../. .... , .. ,' nge at a given date and time and then given ,;, the message, Wllosa the individual could guess the age, the time, and date in the future, he could not obtain the message. In my opinion, the use of this hyrnotic is valu techniqu~ able from your point of view• Certain it is that by hypnotic control over an individual you can extract information pro bal:ly better than any other known way. Furthermore, in good 3ubjects you can crc~te complete Winesias ~hich ~hould be helpful. In addl tion, as I mentioned above, I think lhls technique c·ould bo used on a mass scale as I explained both The page is a typed document with handwritten annotations and a few black redactions. The main body of text discusses "wonder" drugs and hypnotic capacities. Handwritten annotations "D" and "C" appear to the left of paragraphs, possibly indicating points of interest or categorization. A large black redaction spans across the middle right section of the page. Another elongated black redaction is present near the bottom right, with a handwritten "A" preceding it. The document's visual presentation suggests a typical memo or report format with annotations added by a reader. over an individual you can extract information pro bal:ly better than any other known way. Furthermore, in good 3ubjects you can crc~te complete Winesias ~hich ~hould be helpful. In addl tion, as I mentioned above, I think lhls technique c·ould bo used on a mass scale as I explained both as a morale factor or for propaganda purposes. Some people .. ·.,· ·::-o •• ·~•·lr.~l.:.i, in tho Anny I lcnav·are giving thought to these iteras, but ;;:-~'i,, ~-: - whether it can ever be sold at the top-level, I cannot say. ' · · ~ ··• ' · · · I think it' would be very valuable. 1 · ............. .. •.' .... .. . ~ _, t ~~~ '.. !I: . ~ ~ ' ' r J... ~ ·.··~·.· I will try I return from my trip to contact a number wh~n ~\.,.. . '·· of indi vidullls, psychiatrists, and doctors that I kno'll ~.-.J . ..... ....- and without discussing any re,qsons, obtnin from them any ,· J _, !~· -: . · . .· · . information tbat the1 may have on new drug3 or techniques. I do not believe that there are any new drugs and I do not believe there is anything such as the "wonder" drugs ~?t'~"\ .1 /; which will produca instant talking when given to an indi- . \ ~ ...r ~:~J ·l . vidual. I believe our ties are as good ·\~ ' as the and I also believe >r:r ' '~. , . .. ' . that t y have no "wonder" drugs or any other dru~s we .f t..;. do not know about. The only thing they have is plenty }, ....... ' . ot ti.ltle and they care nothing for normal conventions. '• ·ror matter of record,~professed great in terest in this type o~g that in his opinion, it had long been neglected by our Government. He stated he would contribute time and effort if he were called upon to do so and volunteered to assist in any case if he were called upon for assistance. b..!'· • J .·.-,~~ I. ~- ~~-·-· ... . ... ·. .... : ..- L, • - ...... . . ' . ' -~- ."\ ~ -~· ! .J • •._ ,1 · i ' I ,. - ... ... ,• ' .... ·'"' I ', ~ I •' ' .,.:.;..l;l ··~·~ J .·.-,~~ I. ~- ~~-·-· ... . ... ·. .... : ..- L, • - ...... . . ' . ' -~- ."\ ~ -~· ! .J • •._ ,1 · i ' I ,. - ... ... ,• ' .... ·'"' I ', ~ I •' ' .,.:.;..l;l ··~·~