Doc 0000146181

- .. ,10. ') l7 )- • CL • ...._...... 7 <;,. • J , ( \,. · l·!t:t·:ORA~::nJ:·I FOR. THE RECOK.D SUBJECT: Discussions \·lith~y#lli!IJi;:?- on HKNAOm -'~ !" ~-·3aJ:.~0et ~~ith~ 1. in my" office to discuss with hir.1 his kn0·t~led9::-or"the t·ll<N/\G~l! project. ft',.(i~~entel~ect on duty \'lith the Agcmc:y in ~ctob~r 1967 and served as _Chief o~ the ~hemistry Bl·anct! fr~.m !~ar-ch~ Apr1l 1970. Also pres~nt dunng the 1nterv1e\'l were~~ OGC, __ ." , ' · ORO, and ~37.- of OTS. . . · . . .. -.•· ··_ · 2. I ;~-formed~ that \·rhatever information he coul <1. give us ·about th£: project n·e should do SO 'voluntarily, and that he \•InS under no compulsiClr1 to provide.• any information he chose not to. ... . ~ 3. Sometime was spent giving ~;~J!an understanding of \•lhc:t. \·m kn('l'/ abc,llt. Project i·!KNAONl and outlining tha principal gaps ~n our knowledge. 'flw natur·f! of · the project and its stated purpose of maintaining bi'o1ng1cal agents and d£:"1-ivcl'.Y syste;ns in a stata of readiness for operational use, \·/ben juxtaposed v1Hh the current allegations about assassination plots, obviou51y caused great concern within the Agency. }!e Hished to get a better understanding of pl·ccisr··ly hc't/ the project was used and to determine wh=ther or not it had in fact provided d·irect op~ri':Uonn1 support. The discovery of a substantial amount of she11fish toxin in storage 'in OT~ had ct·eated an additional problem. \~e could not ascertain from \·:hence it came, or ~1hether or I}Ot it \'las included in an inventory of nmtedclls held fen· tlm /\gene.\' by Fort Detrick Hhich \'!e pr.:sun;e;cl had been destroyed. . 4. Dr. t:....~~ said that he :-:Js prepar-ed to he'lp in any \':ay he could and \•:ou1cl provide Hhatever infomation he had. He stated at the out5et that. dur·ing his period in O.TS the project had for all intents and purposes been dorr.;ant. Virtually nothing was going on with the project at the time of his first exposure to it~ and indeed his first reaction had been one of surprise that the Agency \·ras acting ~o conservatively in this area. .. 5. The rna tter of the inventory of A£;2r1cy material held by Fort DetriCk cai:'le up k::;ediately. :;;.;~l~\·!as shm·m the unsi:}ned letter to the Dit~ect.or requestin~! gui~anc~ as to the disposal of reserve stccks. He identified the date of th~1. rne~o cf 18 February 1970 as teing in his This page features a graphic depicting a secure vault door on the left, with intricate mechanical details and a glowing blue light emanating from within. The right side of the page displays text in a stylized font at the top, followed by a block of white text. This text explains that the document was obtained from "The Black Vault," an online database of declassified government documents, specifically mentioning the MKULTRA/Mind Control Collection. Below this, a URL is provided in yellow text. There are no photographs of people, locations, equipment, or subjects; no handwritten annotations, signatures, or marginalia; no official stamps; no forms with filled-in fields; no diagrams, schematics, or organizational charts; no tables or structured data; and no visible redactions or obscured content. The visual elements are limited to the vault graphic and the textual information. The document is a typed memorandum with handwritten annotations and markings. A dark, smudged ink stamp resembling a circular emblem with text around its perimeter is visible near the top. Several handwritten numerical notations, including "422," "30 J," "511," and "75," appear in the upper right and center portions of the page, some circled. There are also several redactions, appearing as blacked-out or obscured portions of text, scattered throughout the document. A small, handwritten "75-134" is present in the bottom right corner. .. 5. The rna tter of the inventory of A£;2r1cy material held by Fort DetriCk cai:'le up k::;ediately. :;;.;~l~\·!as shm·m the unsi:}ned letter to the Dit~ect.or requestin~! gui~anc~ as to the disposal of reserve stccks. He identified the date of th~1. rne~o cf 18 February 1970 as teing in his handwriting. He did not recall whether the re~o was actually signed. He did indicate that several months later he w3s to1d by ~--~~-- the Chief of TSD, to personu.lly go to Fort Detrick ar.:: infor::1 th2 ~~~y th~t whatever materials they had of ours should be considered theirs to be c!es:r:y~d or b:~t as the !1rl.:y \·:ish;;d. It is his understar.dir.g th?.t :n::t i::~teri~1 \':as in f;::ct destroyed. In response to a query about the shellfish toxin, ~f-lw· stated that that r.:aterial had in fact been called back from Fort Detrick and \·;as E.2 HiP OET CL Signer .:.. '\ 1 , st-:>red en the bas~ of_ h~s ~·,.;~. d~ci~ion .. ·~hich resu· -~~!~em. ~onv:r~at~o~~ \·ti;~ ~~ lt h--> tl1e1r Deller tr,3t 1.11e COSt anc OlTTlCUit)' Ul lSUicH. . -1119 l..t"I'T._Ef) toxi11 ~-;.:re so Q_t<;at that it siii1ply r::ade no sense to have it destroyed. He poin't:--e&' out that 21/l.~of Fort Detrick hac! I'.'Orked for over ten years in deve1oping the precess whereby the toxin could be prepared in pure form. It \'las sir::ply their 112.rbitrary" decision .that it should not be left for destruction. Apparentiy r.o one, including~~ \'las told of this decision or the fact that tr.e r.:aterial had been returned to OTS. As Dr. ~t recalled, this took place prier to his· being told by~to inform Fort D~trick that destruction of the material on the inventory list could occur. Though toxins were not originally included in the Presidential Order for BW materials destruction, the DOD subsequently did so ·include it. ii!f ta.zestated that he probably should have taken steps at thtlt. tifile to see th21t it \·Ia_? ,G.estroyed. ~\·:as present during this discussion and took no issue \·tith~liA• account. Neither could recall precisely ho\'t the matel·ial was delivered to OTS but agreed that only thr·ee possibilities existed: it \·ms · brought back by either or by..;-., or delivered by someone from Fort . Detrick. The liltter possibility \'las considered to be the most likely.~ \·tas certain that the sh:!lifish toxin in stor::o~ in OTS is the same toxin as that listc·d on the inventory. tlo resolution as it \·ms · brought back by either or by..;-., or delivered by someone from Fort . Detrick. The liltter possibility \'las considered to be the most likely.~ \·tas certain that the sh:!lifish toxin in stor::o~ in OTS is the same toxin as that listc·d on the inventory. tlo resolution as to the discrepancy betv1een the «mounts could t:e found. tO.!'IItiJ reported that a recalculation of the amounts in st.orC19e based upon labels showed that 11.4 grams are actually on hand. Since it is in several different forms and complete reliarrce is placed upon labeling, however·) no ,real dfsc1·epancy -may actually exist. · 6. In response to a question as to the servicing of operat·iona1 l'~quiremcn1_c:,, ~stated· categor-ically that he had never re!==e·ivccJ an operatione1·1 \'equire.·neni for· HKNAOm materials during his tenure in OTS. The most he cve1~ l'ec:eived ·in thc:t vein \·le"'e questions as t-o the state of the art in tG.1'ms of \'Jhat mi9ht be possibh!. He appa·:-ently had to respond ft·equently in a negative way to quest·ions about th(! availability of instantaneous incapo.citants. A pr·incipa1 inter·est in such Ct capabi 1 i ty \•tas expressed both by Agency personnel and Army Special Forces in relation to a desire to knock out a Viet Cong 1e'ider before he could l'end~r himself unable to talk. No such capc.bi1ity existec~ nor \'las the development of such a capability in the near term foreseeable. 7. In discussing the way in \·:hich the project v:as managed~<,.~ genera1lv confilT.led earlier information on the subject. Virtually no \·lrittcn t•ccor·ds \.;ere generated. Indeed he stated that during his association with the project he hed never see:n an operatior~a1 file on the project. Funding genera1"Jy supported sao• ~ operations without close accounting on a tasking basis. During his period, the progtem pursued by SOD \'Jas almost entirely one of its O\'m making. He stated thClt his role \·las essentially one of keeping :t:;"\·that \·tas going on. Horeover, f;(! pointed out that he had no mandate fromM · to 'initiate any ne'll efforts · \·tithin the project. He made it clear that the requirements Of the Army .Special ' i Forces were the driving force defining SOD activitie~;. He stated that Special ' .. Forces• interest included a number of \leird things, definitely among l·thich \·ras assassination. He also stated, hm·;ever, that there \·ms no \•ray in th(: \•:orld that such an interest could be documented. SOD's program The page contains primarily typed text, with a handwritten annotation "422" in the top right corner and "75-135" near the bottom right, suggesting a document identifier or classification. There are also several instances of redactions represented by black rectangular blocks obscuring text, primarily within the body of the typed paragraphs. The overall appearance is that of a declassified government document with standard formatting, lacking any photographic images, diagrams, forms, or stamps beyond the handwritten notations. This page is a typed document with some handwritten annotations and redactions. At the top right, there's a handwritten number "422". A circular official stamp with the letters "ST" is visible in the upper right quadrant of the main text block. There are multiple instances of redactions, appearing as blacked-out or heavily obscured blocks of text, scattered throughout the document. One redaction is in the first paragraph, and another is in paragraph 9, obscuring specific names or details. The bottom right corner has handwritten text: "75-134". The document contains numbered paragraphs detailing information related to a project, with the content primarily text-based. ' i Forces were the driving force defining SOD activitie~;. He stated that Special ' .. Forces• interest included a number of \leird things, definitely among l·thich \·ras assassination. He also stated, hm·;ever, that there \·ms no \•ray in th(: \•:orld that such an interest could be documented. SOD's program centered on or about "the big ~- 2 . ! . .. -·-... ----.--.. • •• ..,..,~~-~~-~----:. -~·-· "t. .. ~.;· .. :-~··. . ···~ "'-:·.··...,.....;·~~ .,... •• P';--~~--- _-----,-~~--~-..-.___,....-.~-~·.;.-·Y..·,...-- .,..-r .......... ___.. - _ . . _..:,,.;;.:.-..:.:.:.~ ...... _... _~_ ... _ _ .:. -~--.. ·· . .... ..· ---Jo' ,_~ ......· . ..... ~-- . ---·~---.. . : - .. ---.....:... ..:... ~~·-- .- · .. ·. / . -e''#~'!tll(:'""' . . . . l ,-. fiVe11 This ten;; ref::rred to five special delivery ~ystens for m·l agents \•/hi ~I • \·:ere b~ing developed for specific use by Special Forces. Included ar::ong the5e ~! -the nicrc projectile project -- which appears to be identical to the micro-bia- I inn.:c.:..:.1 =. -~cr -- in \·;hich so !71uch Agency intue:st Has sh01m. Neither~nor · ! I ·~co:;ld remerr:ber \vhat the other foul' delivery systems \·/ere. Sp~.gency interest had been sho·.m tC'.·:ard soluble projectiles primarily as a means for intt·o ducing larger amounts of incapacitants into the body and in dog incapacitating systems. The latter were apparently actually tested on the ~uard dogs maintained in earlier times at Isolation. The use of Nalline as an antidote had proved vet·y effective so that the dogs completely recovered in about five minutes after its administration. Nearly all of this work had been started and reached its high point before~ time. 8. In genetal, ~~characterized his exp~rience \'lith the i)rojcct as having beer. very uneve1tful, continuously diminish·ii'1g in.level, and not t~t all of major interest or significance. · 9. In swmnary, I found the discussi~n \·lith~ helpful and entire1y believable. He has) I think, cleared up the question as to how we became the unwitting possessor of our shellfish toxin store. He stated that it was handled \'lith extreme care ah;<:ys. Undoubtedly it w~s simply ·[Tansferred fl•cm one ft~eezcl'" to another and in his view continually kept under adequatE>. control. ~~ \·tas certain that nothing had been done with it subsequent to "its de'livery clul'ing the time he remain~d \·iith the Ag::mcy • ...,.,._.has given assutances that "it \•las untouc:hr~ct subsequent to that. t:~account simply ·[Tansferred fl•cm one ft~eezcl'" to another and in his view continually kept under adequatE>. control. ~~ \·tas certain that nothing had been done with it subsequent to "its de'livery clul'ing the time he remain~d \·iith the Ag::mcy • ...,.,._.has given assutances that "it \•las untouc:hr~ct subsequent to that. t:~account of the wir.ding clown of l-IKNJ\Om ·is consistent. with our records. ~ I t. . I. i . ,. i· f .. - ---t ... !. ~- l . - . .~.. I .. · ..... "'! .I t · • ! . !'• ... ~ I ~ 3 . -.· -·