Doc 0000146198

The image is a header for a declassified document originating from "The Black Vault," an online database of government documents. To the left, a stylized, metallic vault door with multiple wheels and levers is depicted, illuminated by a blue glow. The text to the right explains that the document is part of the MKULTRA/Mind Control Collection, housing over 20,000 declassified CIA pages, and provides a URL for downloading the entire collection. There are no photographs, handwritten annotations, official stamps, forms, diagrams, tables, redactions, or visual evidence of experimental procedures, equipment, or facilities present on this page. -- .----:----- ....... -,--....__· ~ - -, ·-------------- ")·· .. ... ..... .) ..... L"' .. • -·. . 7 Augost 19:75 . ·~·~..:... ... "'· ·' -~ .. :MEl\!ORANDUl\1 .FOR THE RECO.R D ... .. : ... .... ·, SUBJECT: Mce~ing withf · ~ . ' •. . . . J - llO/DDSZ~~I') ~nd ..:]in. r 1. I :raet ·with[ •. _ . lyesterday. fie met us at the airport .. ...a nd took us to his horae where: we had.our discus!;ion, ~cturning us to the airport tor our fiight back to 'Vashington. • ·. . . ~: f~t<lted had~ hi~ cor~·e~tecl . · . \ - - . tt..zt be cop'f of .· transcipt of a telephone conV:ersaf:ion \vith David Belin of the . ·Rockefeller Conunission. ·we told hirri that our interest was not in the Cas~ro oparation,.~s such. However, the report thatr · · · } . land I clid in 1967 (he recalled ·being interviev1ed by us) did provide soxne leads- to a. new subject ot_interest. 'Xhe 1967 :rcporl .- referrecf to his involve:rr.. . cnt in August through October of 1960. ' . ~ with the treatment o! som.e cigars. The record showed tha.t those cigars -vterc never used and were destroyed by him after the retire- : . ·vre ::ment o£ Col. Edwards i.n Jurle of 1963. told him that the 1·eco:d · . · · also showed that in February 1961 he had tested some pills[: . · .. ·_ . J . J . . . . . H.e remembered both 'tqe~e .... ·incidents •. \Ve told him that our c1uestion was how he happened to· ·- .. ·. ... know to go to( · ·. · · -a fox these materials. . ·The significanc.e ~ > · · · • .. o£ this qL'l.eStion no,. .r is that the .Agency is trying to reconstruct a. .. -.~ -. rel~tionship that TSD had with Fort Det!ick.. ·,. · •'." '· . . . r. . .• .... .. ;·. ··.. .. . . . .. . .·. .:~ ' 3. lrirsf: showed us his transcript, vthich. is. in very . -.... •. general terms,. but that is :meaningful i£ one is Ia.nU.liar· , ..l ith his ... ... peripheral r'ole in the Casyo afCair. It ~cportcd the r~ceipt or .. ·- -~- · :_ ··las the cigars and delivery to[ · ... The document is a typed memorandum with handwritten annotations at the top right, including a circled number "466" and some illegible script. The text itself appears to be a detailed record of a meeting, divided into numbered sections, with a date of "7 August 1975" at the top. There are several instances of obscured content, indicated by blank spaces within square brackets in the text, suggesting redactions within the original document. The page also contains several small, dark smudges and speckles throughout, typical of aged paper. Towards the bottom right, there are two blurry images of what appear to be textured objects, possibly photographs of materials or equipment, though their details are not discernible. A Roman numeral "15" is visible below these images. us his transcript, vthich. is. in very . -.... •. general terms,. but that is :meaningful i£ one is Ia.nU.liar· , ..l ith his ... ... peripheral r'ole in the Casyo afCair. It ~cportcd the r~ceipt or .. ·- -~- · :_ ··las the cigars and delivery to[ · ... well a~ th~ir return to him..· : after being treated. It also reco1·ded liis experhn~nting with the ·. · :. pillsfl. . :· · · · """l \Vhe~ interviewed by BcHn, I. ~ .... ~.:.:?stated - · in that lie did not kno·w what materials were used treating th~ ciga:rs: .. .· His description o! the.[. . · ]test, in ta,lking ~vith Belin, described t_he unsatisfa~ory nature o! the test~ .I to~cl[ .: ·:· .· .~that in 1967 :··. .. · [ · ·- .:had told us that the material :\vas bot.ulinum. to -..vhich.· .. .... .. .. . ··-· ·. > . .. . . .. . .. .' ' .. . ·I ... ,. . . . . . . . I ./J ...... - ·.~ . .;. .. ·· .. ~ f . .. : ·"" sat!s !ac~o:-:f results •!. I lacscribed how he first c<!r~e t~ pe involved '\""~th in the pco1ll~ TSD. He w~sJnt~icstcd in devcl<>ping a. system o! type-idcntit}'" of individtl.alsj ~; - _ - . .· .- ·. . . .- J ~~-j I . .· •. .. . . . int~rcstf'- ::·~· T_i.lrough this .. · . : be~a.m.e J . familiar -\.-n.thJ. . of TSD. They de•reloped • · • .. . . :.:: som.e 50 packages oi typ~-idcntificat:ion matcri~ls.. He d~es no~ . ~ :_ ._ . · -~ · ... :·/ h."llow '\vhat happened to this system., and suspecLS that they xnay · . . . ·. · . ; }la\re been destroyed by persons '"•ho did not have the san").e int~rest .. :·.. ' in the concept as he. As a matter o.£ interest, there: '\Vere ot~cl" . ·· . . I f .. o rm . s . o i id . e nti!!_catio . n , [ . . . . · . . . : : . ~. . ; - • .. . . . . · ; - ~ .: . ' --·. s: [ . . . ,.- . .. .. .. :• .• .·· . . . ... -.· • . The document is a black and white, typed page with handwritten annotations. There is a handwritten note in the upper right corner with what appears to be a circled number or code, and another set of handwritten marginalia in the bottom right. A few sections are bracketed and underlined by hand, along with some marginal text in brackets. There are several instances of dashed lines and dots consistent with a xerographic reproduction of a document, and a page number "-2-" is present near the bottom center. There is no visible evidence of photographs, official stamps, forms, diagrams, tables, or redacted content. [ . . . . · . . . : : . ~. . ; - • .. . . . . · ; - ~ .: . ' --·. s: [ . . . ,.- . .. .. .. :• .• .·· . . . ... -.· • . . .. · -. fas.s~ed ~h;t ~~D was doing ·work at Dct~~l~ .. ._..f!c. ~ .-.~ . . : .·· ..· . was neve:r: told. tfiis airectly, but felt that work was b. .c. ing done. ~ . . ' . there.. He V/2.S :q.o~ !a..""Di?:~~r.:with ther . . ··]. alt~_ougb lte . . ·•· =_. . · _ .• _· _.r~co~ize~ t~e-· •• :·:·w\~~~~P~·:/_4.: :·."=· ..: · ~/:: ~--~ ~~~~ .. ~.- ~:-; .·· .. · .--~~~.: . . • • • • • • · :_. ·• · • • 6., [:. _ · . \s~atcd that in the late 1950~ (pcrhap~ a~ound :~_..:· .. :· ·:-." ::::_-.·~ . · : 1957) someone in the DD! invited a ~umber 9! inter-Agency (sic}· < " "~·:_ ·: · ·. •: :.. . : _ ·· · , was . - people to g~ out: to Det~ick !or a three-day progr":m. .. That ~- <-~~ . - · .· prior to· tne time,. a.cc;ording to his recollection, that Detric.'!c . -:· ... :::·.: ... -:·. ....... • · . constructed the cinder block building that it used later !or a good . .:..: · • · · ~-.. .' · · deal of its special ·work. He sa.w the bullding at ·a later date.·. I~ ~ ~· ·. ·. : · ;·-:: · .. "\vas· built quite close to the road and he felt it could easily be · -:.~ •. .'· ~ ,. . -~~ .·· ·.:z. · · . sabotaged. Someone could hit it with a bazooka '~;hich'woltld. ~- .: -~. :.:~ - . Hcollap.se the vacuum system." which ,-::ould lead to considerabie·. · · _. ... : : ~:~ :· . trouble by the release o! bactel.'ia. ('_.~·; ·, ·. . Jdoe~ot recall . ·· · ·.:: · ::~ .' kno'\vir1g any one at Fort Detrick, although he had[··.;· ·y:::-::.-,.·=,_ ~-~ .-..;~ · ' ..· · .;_ ·. I . ·.. · . · · ·. .. . · . . · ·· ··1 He did x{~t-wa:;;_t't~ u~ . . . .•. · • · . · The document is a page from a declassified report that appears to be a transcript or interview summary, evidenced by numbered points and conversational phrasing. It contains handwritten annotations in the margins, including circled letters and numbers, as well as numerical markings in the bottom right corner. There is a stamp with "TSD" written on it, and other official classification markings are not visible. The page also shows some smudged or obscured text, particularly in the bottom center and right portions of the document. · ::~ .' kno'\vir1g any one at Fort Detrick, although he had[··.;· ·y:::-::.-,.·=,_ ~-~ .-..;~ · ' ..· · .;_ ·. I . ·.. · . · · ·. .. . · . . · ·· ··1 He did x{~t-wa:;;_t't~ u~ . . . .•. · • · . · • . . . • . . .:,.I Col ~ .... out there in ~ny ~y-ent, because -the mi~ro-biologists wcre·"para.di;._g'~ _-_-,:· anti he rnieht become identified with it. He stat.ccl that he kne'\"r that .. 'l'SD had direct access to Dt::trick, and also to 1\"'H, but ~ha:t.<'h. ~· cannot:··.:~-~-: . ~swcr today how he knew. . · ... · . · ·· ~ ~.. .. ... ..•. ·:· . ~ . .•~. •.· -...... · :-:-- •• : & •. :--:.~· 2- · ... ·.- . . ... ·. ... .. • . .. ... . . . . . . ;-.. ~.:·---:- ... ··-•.. •. . :·<( ..,. . ~ /-~~~-(~-: .. · . ./: .. • -..•• : ! .. . . ···:·r .· • .. ·:; .. ~:·~!: ;_.~~/ ~. ~' -------::-~-:- ' -·-- / .....) .· ) ·, J6 ... -- ~cic"t;;,c ::vi_s:~c:;l~~~hiC ~nd ::~~\~~;:;':~.;~~~;;!i~i~/ ~ i:d}_ A ell, e.xpln~n~df. ~ \'~ssoct:ltt?n. Wl.!_~ v~ncl)· :Bissell's. .l hls '':"' .. a o! "---../ · · -prnpor;als. Hci ~aid that he coclcl t<!.lk '':i.thr · hvho hacl "lots . . . 11 o£ ideas. His,{ ; role ~~-e'rned to ·b~ a sort ;:;-( Ceasibility · · · · ~cvicw. The DDP called him -in from time to time: to check the . . . . oi Icilsibility oi ideas !rom a medi~nl point v~e'-:'1:• As an c:.:a.~~~!!._-~........:...--..::.-~.f i\·-·.: .. - ~~~ir~ -~-~~~-r~ ~~~...?.~:=:i:=7.~. ~om~~n.? ~~~~--t~~-r-~ ~~:'oU:l~ .~?. ~:-'--· ~--=--::·, ,-sn ._._. .......•..•. -·-····--·-··· r---·-· -·--·· .. __ .......... ·---·-·-··· .. -------·--- !ailed on this~ andL . -p.,a_s ca.llcc.i in. Uis participation led to a ·:: · · f · S\\CCess!ul conclusion· o! th<": investigation and the syste1n is used :">· J ·i in police worl;:: tC?day, ._according' to hira. . .. · . . . . "' _ j··. ·.· •. S. l .. Iel~\h~t },_ci· consi.ueredf •·· ]and[. ·. . -.. . :.·~· ~ ~: -~1 ·;i (the latter now deceased) -as friendly CO:rt"cP.etitor_s. He _seemed ~o -~ __ .: . "I or[ . . hold a di!!er~nt opinion _)about. whom he_ was·_.·. . ..· . critical j··. ·.· •. S. l .. Iel~\h~t },_ci· consi.ueredf •·· ]and[. ·. . -.. . :.·~· ~ ~: -~1 ·;i (the latter now deceased) -as friendly CO:rt"cP.etitor_s. He _seemed ~o -~ __ .: . "I or[ . . hold a di!!er~nt opinion _)about. whom he_ was·_.·. . ..· . critical for pu?lic _sta.te1ne;:n~ !_hat\ un.clcrstan.ds he currenf:ly . :· -~ .· :- -_ ~ _ is_ :m~Jdngr _ ~ _ . __ · _ \rei}=t hat he could deal _clil·~c:ly .. _. · _! · '\VJ..th!_ - . · but he had to keepl . J!rorn lcnoyn.~ th~s . · • : • : r - .., . . . beca.use{ !insisted on people dealing only with him. · · ,_!ndf . . __ ·.managed to con_duc.t sor.ne inf.orn"1c:.l business tllis w<;.y. _ f ·. .:·· :!elt that perhaps the best person "'nth !:.:nov1ledge was a n'lan · .· .'· · . who had the .11best brains" ~d an over<:~.U responsibility in TSD. • ~· . :ae gave us the !ollowing name and 'address_: . . .. . . ...... ,·· ·. ... -.-. ·.• - . . ----... . .. . . . · · .." . ~,; . - . ·. · .: • - ·. . ., . ->_-r._ . . . • · . . . - . . . .. .. ... : . ... ; : .. _-. -.- . • . . ~ - . .• ' . \. . .. . • . -· . .. . . ... . : - . . · · . . • : . • : • ~ -- ~ . l : - ! . .. ·_ , ;_ · = : .. . . • :. • " : : . • ~ . -. : • ; . . r . .: • · ; . - ~ . , ~ - . · - . - : : . or.·:··_:·; · ·- · ·9. Yle tal.~ea about[ =~parti"cipation in the t%:caf;~e:nt ~~-:~· · _- the cigars and the 1na.l:ing of the pills. 1Vc asked how he happened . . ... ; ~-··~ •. - .- ···to lO'l.ow.to go to[ . · . ":) Given the :na-ture o! t:he_~at~ria.l '\ve _._":·~_::_- :_··. . ·.,:: hoped that it indicated some !'nowledge on his part o!wha.t was : ·:·:·· ·· •. ~c1er development at The page appears to be a typewritten document with handwritten annotations. There is a circled handwritten notation in the upper right corner, appearing to be "5-23". There are also some blanks indicated by brackets, suggesting redacted or missing information. The document itself is numbered "146198" at the top and "-4-" at the bottom. The text describes interviews or inquiries related to a program, discussing agency funding, materials, and applications, including drugs and tranquilizers. There is no imagery of people, locations, equipment, or experimental procedures. This page contains typed text in a standard document format. Handwritten annotations include a circled number "523" in the top right corner, a signature "S. D. Breckinridge" with initials underneath, a solitary number "-5-" in the lower left quadrant, and the handwritten numbers "75-172" in the bottom right corner. There are no photographs, official stamps, forms, diagrams, or redacted content. The document appears to be a transcript or summary of a conversation or interview, with the annotations likely representing review marks or indexing information. pills. 1Vc asked how he happened . . ... ; ~-··~ •. - .- ···to lO'l.ow.to go to[ . · . ":) Given the :na-ture o! t:he_~at~ria.l '\ve _._":·~_::_- :_··. . ·.,:: hoped that it indicated some !'nowledge on his part o!wha.t was : ·:·:·· ·· •. ~c1er development at Detrickft He thinks that Col. Edward_s ·.= · ·~ •. •· · · · ac~me ::him~ ?.[~nd s~gg~~-ted it~ :r~ vi.e~vr::9 his.':~~~ ~~ .;~i~ _i~~~~;::~c_. ~ _ ·:: - ser 'IJ.ng d.., · . . • . .- . • . • • : • , •..•••. ,._. _. -· I · . · · I ·n also pxo~id-~d .the ~e~lcal ;c;ecn· Io~ r~vi~vi~g-the ·. _ ..: : · ..: . . concept o"fwhat ;rs~. o!£ercd. Col. Edwards woul~ hav~J:o~~- ~inh l _. _ J to go t~ .TSD ?r and ·wo\lld not. h47ve menb.oned~ .' ~-?~ :·,~: _J by •• · n_an'le. · · · - · · · · .• • · •. .. ·~ .~_,: . - . ·.. ·-:· . . - . .. ... · • . .. ...._ .. · . .. 3- ; · . .. ·.· ·.• ... . -~· · .. . ... ~ . ,. • • • • • t .. ... · ... . . · .)· ..... ·· - . . 10. Vie asked ~ l 1 if he h<:'.d any knowledge of tlle Agency -· .. !ur.c~i:!.;g for the Dc~trick p:·-~zra!n o. .r for constnfction of the build!.r..g the::-c. He said he h2.d no~e. · 'l'h.e. onl}'- kno-.vledge that he h.?.d of the 'ISD h.!.dgct wa.s ,-~:hen he o:tce "Sa"'-'' some papers dealing with a. co:1tr2.ct withf .. ·•. · · · · ... t · . . .:J ' This was a prog1·arn concerned ·with . ..; use oi drugs in connection with interrogation and p:tograms in cle.fense. ' ·. against drugs. · ! ·'i . ll~ ~sked a[ · - H~ 1Ve if he.knew said that he bad··· 1 worked 'Tiith him on one progr::;m. ~ ·.l _ . In reviewing the materialsl _ .-. .: · came to beli u e s v e t~1at it '\'7oulcfnof: se1·vo the purpose cla~n1.ed ~d · · • 11a grou_.g of worked against. it. . " 'Ihc~ proved that they were · · right. L · 111didn1t lLl;;e this" and[ lsaid he never really . him .-. .: · came to beli u e s v e t~1at it '\'7oulcfnof: se1·vo the purpose cla~n1.ed ~d · · • 11a grou_.g of worked against. it. . " 'Ihc~ proved that they were · · right. L · 111didn1t lLl;;e this" and[ lsaid he never really . him a • worked with again.· There was ma.n involved in some V(ay vlith. .: . . . . ·t . . hi . • s . ~ -. b .. y . the name: o! . [ · . "'l . ( spellir,g uncertain}. . . · ·. .. . . . . . _ : , · - . . . · · · .. . . . · - . . '. _ · . . . · · . · ~ · . · ·. 12. [ 'tclked about other things that lie did. fie ·rc!er.red ~ .. . t o- t .. h . e . case oiJ . ~ · · . .· ·· .. ~- ~ .. .-.. J; ·. ~ . _ .. .. -: .. . . .· . : . .. .. .· . .. · . . ;; - . : .• . . . · . · . . . • : . . . · _ . • : . . .- : - .. - ~ ~ . ~ . " . : , ! ~ . ~ · _ . _ · · . He said that he tan~ed tc no . · · · :::_ ·: ~\:. ~ l case officers on .(?per~tions witb out app~oval~ S? !ar af!· operatio~s · :: .. . · . ·. · ·.: .. :') (:~ ~~:}r~>J: ,:;_~~~:rJ __ -- ,con.c•=•a. 1 _ . . _ . . : _. ·, .. _'_ :. .- · _ _. · . ·.·13. [ · • . . ]said that he ~vas 'familia; with d~iiv~ry sy~tet.n~ . '-(·: -;_'~·j He . ·.:. .. ·. ...: j that had been develop·ed !or application oi certain.materials •. kne'\V about the microbioinoculator (dart system} and relatecl it to . : .. ···;· :: the application o! tranquilizers to el.=,phants, lions and tigers~ He ·. ·. -~:. ~--· ·. ~ :~.~ . • ·vias 1amiliar , ..A th an[ · ·:· · .· -~. .. . .' He said that he had ~obbi~d . · and relatecl it to . : .. ···;· :: the application o! tranquilizers to el.=,phants, lions and tigers~ He ·. ·. -~:. ~--· ·. ~ :~.~ . • ·vias 1amiliar , ..A th an[ · ·:· · .· -~. .. . .' He said that he had ~obbi~d . · · .~· ·:- :_:_:l f .. ::-'.:·· .· ... : ... • to rnak~-sure_ the.~ these ~y.stems we.~e ~?t used o:r: ~~mans •. -~ ~-:·. : ·: · .: l jl -f·' ' .. ·. : . .. · . .' .. ·. :-:· ' ' . . . _: ::' .,·: -~·~ ~.;_\::~?"::_: ~: . - ;· .·.: . . . . ..· • ..>. , H ·~ ~· ~- ... ·. <=' . . . ~· .· •. .. • .=::.:,. . . :. ·~ ·. . . . : ";<. i;jI 4- . •• fi ~ • I :, . .· -' .. ·--· ·----·.~::::.-..-: .. ·- .·) ) .. ,. .: 1~. '\'{c sum.xnarizec! fo-rC what he had tole! us nsking Hit "vets correct th.at he had no direct knowledge or involvement i;1 the TSD program_ at Detriclli tha.t his knowledge \vas indirect:. .· being related to speci!ic instaric"e'"s. He stated that this was correct • ...... . . . ... ·. ... . . . ". . .. ·. . .. . -":' .... -· . . .,. . . . : :. .· i .. 4. -· -. -:-r ... ---- I ·. ··-. ·. •. ..•. .. .- . . ! ... .. · I ·. . . . .. . · !• ·~ · · . . : . .. . : - ·~ · - ~··· ~ ~ . ·. . . . .. ·- , . · .· . .• .: . ·. ... ·. ·, ~ ' : .. I . . . . .. . '.: -.·· ·j ··• -. .. :. ~-. .. ·<·~::·I ·- . ·. . - · · .. · .. . .. ·. · . ... :·., . . : . ... .. -- . _ . : . I .. ... . •. · . . . - : • . . •.".. . - .. · . •.. . :· ·: . : . 1 ' . · _.·. -. . .. . ~· ~-· · . .. . : . -- . _ . : . I .. ... . •. · . . . - : • . . •.".. . - .. · . •.. . :· ·: . : . 1 ' . · _.·. -. . .. . ~· ~-· · . .. . : . . ·, .-.·: . . · . :;.:_- •· .. 5- _."1 i .. ··I ,. .i I .. . ·.