Doc 0000148470

. ' Offi.ce Met;zora1zdtt11Z . •. \, UNITED STATES GOVERNI\iENT .TO Files DAT~: 12 February 1952 FROM ~iri SUDJECT: Con versa t.ion betwee -_!if.!apfi]the ter .. on 12 Februnry 1952. 1. Between 10: 20 and 11: 1.! 5 Al1, 12 F~ bruary 19 52 the writer en- 7 gaged in a long, involved, and somewh on concerning "Artichoke" and related matters wit A l. In general, it may be stated that_ arguments were that the Agency was doing nothing along "Artichoke" lines and t.'1at it w·as time for. the Agency to make up its mind wh~ther or not an extensive program for "Artichoke" should be put in effect or whether th~ ~.L... idea should be aholished. lt/hile net directly critical of I&S~ in the opinion of the writer, made it p~ly clear that he regarded- . the general viewpoint of I&SC~~~~as more or less of a stumbling block, or at least· ~~f: in the way of "Artichoke" ;.;ork. ). the writer a which apparently lon~.document was mere prcposal for extensive "Artichoke" here and abroad and the outlay of This plan involv~d approxL~atel more or less provided for the establislwent of ora ory in the United States (somewhere locally) and a large working area overseas. 1) OSI would recruit or h.:ive already been pr<"n'lised medical men, and etc. who would be sc~entists, available for the application-of the latest pos sible techniques of all types to overseas subjects. 2) These technicians would b~ trained and produced ,. .... '· 3) These men would be a sort of 3Uper-~x~ert, coM- . bining psychi~try;·psycholo~y, and medical know ledge and would tackle the subjects in the field. ~ould ihdividual~ ll) ts be primarily individuals -.;hom the Agency wi:F - .. ~ •. \~·!. -' ..... '. , .. . ~ .~- ·. . :. .. __ al I. .. could be ' .. 5) TI1e very latest "ideas" would be used includinr. .. , electroshock, lysergic acid, drugs, electro encephalogr;?.ph, hypnosis, etc., etc. 6) The ol~."~luebird" idea· of an interrogation team would, of cour!9e, be away with since don~ these experts could administer the drugs, carry ·, on interrogation, and handle the whole work themselves, apparently on an individual basis. A 7) In connection with the proposal;.~~j plan indicated that ther~ would h{.:·e o be a co-ordinator, a sort of combination doctor, busine~sman, ~nd administrator, who would h~ the f ·. oversll director of the The image displays a bold, stylized title "THE BLACK VAULT" in white lettering with a blue glow against a dark background. To the left, a detailed illustration of a bank vault door is visible, featuring multiple gears, a dial, and a metallic sheen. The right side of the image contains a block of white text explaining that the document originates from "The Black Vault," an online database of declassified government documents, specifically mentioning the MKULTRA/Mind Control Collection and providing a URL for download. The provided image appears to be a title or splash page for the MKULTRA collection rather than a declassified document itself. carry ·, on interrogation, and handle the whole work themselves, apparently on an individual basis. A 7) In connection with the proposal;.~~j plan indicated that ther~ would h{.:·e o be a co-ordinator, a sort of combination doctor, busine~sman, ~nd administrator, who would h~ the f ·. oversll director of the Project and, apparently, there would be two staffs, one p~rmanent h~re and one in. . T hese staffs ·.,.onld 1:1~ fairly large and wou d include at least one GS-15, one GS-lL, and on-e GS-13 and, it is b-elie'."ed, R(:lout four other employ"!es at Grades 11, 9, 5, and L, etc. The plan also indicated that these positions would be between here interch~ngeable and the field. 8) This plan also, as stated above, called for the esta.blishment of some sort of lacoratory here in the United States, but details of the type of laboratory were not fully set out nor was the basic reason for such a laboratorj·_explained. .. A .. . nd was ·. appare ~~~~~,d the electroshock ·connection. ~, e/~a He stated tha · not think the use of drugs was pa~· efficacious a e~~was mora advantageous.~ also clearly indicatP.d tha~as continuing to work on a sort ~ of polygraph th.::\t. cou.J..u used in largc-!lcale screening pro devic~ be- ject:-1 to or not there were indivldu.:"tls who 'tie rl~termine ~o~hether rni~ht of interest to us. He particularly stressed the 11SC1_Uealer11 de·.tice that -,. ..) : . could be op€'J::"at~d very simply hy showin~ an individual pictures which ·..tould in turn create physiologicol which would r~acticns produc~ th~ squealing sound. pressed for specific as to whether \~hen info~ation ./. .. • \ ;· -~- \ ·' ~·· ' .. •I or not the elctro!; heen us~d tn obt.!lin information from individua.ls ated th~t it. ht'd h~en used, cut not ex.- tens.ively nnd he ::tl3o admitted th.-tt it h~d b~~n used in cases involVing people not attempting to conce~l information. He ~tated that this was one of the :i:dP.as for thoa. lMrge-scale proj~ct -- thnt this electroshock tec~nique could be tried out more successfully over~eas. r so mentioned the possitle usage of the pre-frontal lobot that he thoueht this technique could be applied to st~ted individuals the Agency was n9i longer concerned with in the overseas areas on an basis. cxperimen~al 1. ndicated that he felt that trained intcrr0gators were o( no parhcula.r JJ!Iportance in the matter of interrogation and This document is a typed memorandum with handwritten annotations and redacting. The memorandum is from an "Office Memorandum" with "UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT" at the top, dated February 12, 1952. Various sections of the text are obscured by black redactions, particularly names of individuals and agencies. Handwritten annotations in ink include letters like "A," "G," "B," "F," and what look like reference numbers or symbols such as "4-OB" and "H-B16" and "6/3." There are no photographs, diagrams, tables, or evidence of experimental procedures visible. The document page appears to be a typewritten report, possibly a memo or excerpt from a larger document, with handwritten annotations in the margins. There are multiple redactions, indicated by black ink, obscuring various words and phrases throughout the text. To the left of the text, there are handwritten symbols and letters, including "A", "H-B/6", and "C". In the upper right, there are also handwritten letters "A" and "F". A page number "-2-" is visible at the bottom center of the page. No images, stamps, forms, or diagrams are present. usage of the pre-frontal lobot that he thoueht this technique could be applied to st~ted individuals the Agency was n9i longer concerned with in the overseas areas on an basis. cxperimen~al 1. ndicated that he felt that trained intcrr0gators were o( no parhcula.r JJ!Iportance in the matter of interrogation and st<lted that any psychiatrist or clinically ined psycho ld obt<tin trr~ the ans,.ers since they specialized in this anyway. eemed to 1:-elieve that· the psychiatrist or doctor would be all would be necessarJ in the medical handling ~pplying techniqu~s, th~ ~1estions, etc., etc. He stated the case officer and interpreter could assist th~t but that the technical expert or psychiatrist would be sufficient to handle the entire job. : a. tated that most of the psycniatri~ts, doctors, etc. he had ere not impressed by use of drugs in this type th~ of work, but ad.mi tted that other tecr.niques were not and could not be readily made available. He constantly referred to the fact that that was the idea of the p to take every technique overseas and try it in these cases. . te1t.eci emph no matter l<lt. assign~d to the k'en work fro staff, that s answer ...,ould he an emphatic 11no" ~ re~=~.rds to the whol~ UfiiDRP A situation. He spoke somewhat critic ally of a11d stated th.!lt ·he had no background !or this type . of work. iie s t."l ted that there were plenty of d.ical officers at pl-aces who knew more about oth~r this-th d his entire staff, 9. ked writer whether or not we had had anv th~ train~es for this type of work furnish~d u~r. The w-riter ·tol~·~~.IHI!MI. that there hnd bP.en several trainees but at t time ~here was no attached to this office a3 a trainee. critical of on~ A the fact that i"ersonnel and recruitinr, people h failed to turn up people to be tr~ined along the3~ line:; and further stated that the Agency could. nev·.~~~ produce individuals cit.her 11\~dical men or sci~ntist.s who would be to work along lines and that he had willin~:; thcs~ ~lready b~en promis~Jd, as statod al'-ove, a'nwnb~r of indi'lidu~ls~·~e technically tl"'Clined ~nd could he used in tho?.se project.3 ·~ : . asked the writer '.theth'!r or n•Jt we had nny case in whic: ,..e 11nd im . mediat~ interest <tnd the writer stat~d that there •..rere none to his ' ' . k'no~zladge as statod al'-ove, a'nwnb~r of indi'lidu~ls~·~e technically tl"'Clined ~nd could he used in tho?.se project.3 ·~ : . asked the writer '.theth'!r or n•Jt we had nny case in whic: ,..e 11nd im . mediat~ interest <tnd the writer stat~d that there •..rere none to his ' ' . k'no~zladge as ·or the pre:;ent d<lte. He stated that he sho1.1.!..d be informed ~t -3- I '· • I . • . about all c:lsc~ and the writer told him th~r~ '..Jere no cases co1ntem pla ted in the fut.ure except the one that w~s to have he~n handled in November and the •..rri ter informnd him t!'i.~ t it :.r~s merely under con::;id- ern tion ~nd further a. ong this line was not kno;m to th~ writer sp~clflcally. as critical of th~ l~ck of cases heing furnished by· the opera ask~d the w.rit~r 'if he w.1s ~w~re of th~ ~lQnr. h:rpno tic .:J nri / The writ~r ~as quite pnrtlcip notic experiments· ex nsive resea d done ~long t.h~sc furnish any reports ~ connnction to the nev~r. briefed the writer fully on the ;ctivities ar the ~rit~r ~J g?iFn ~ son~on~ to sug~e5ted th:l :.rould probably eople i.n hypno.sis anu. ;.-hen the Hriter pointed was not regarded as a top authority on hypnosis, most of the men (sp~cialists in hjynosis) would not work if thP.y knew it '-~ould be "tainted", but h~ felt be prevailed upon to do it.· g~neral t~ that~ 11. As a rule, it would appear the writer was apparently disturbed by an overall lac.k of progress on the "Arti , " choke" work. The \-lri ter assured him that Security believes in lar~e­ scale progressive and intellig~nt research, hut that ·a securit:r probbm •.o~as a strong factor in any large-:scale. !JfOject, particularly ov~r5t!a5. It is the writer's opLnion that-ooes not und~rst~nd th~ fact that irr~spectiv~ of exten3ive research and theoretical ide~s, none of the "new" techniques or "new" drugs conl.:J. oossihl:v be U!';<::!d a•;ai.n:it given the resent. time. Th~ writer att ted to make it cleRr to writer admitted that er ~ne successful WRS unknown, ~lthough a fair chRnce of success appear to be pres~nt. The ~riter made non~ and has m~P·)i' :ng claims for the dru~-hypnosis techniqu~, 'hut pointed out t · .~hat there was a lot of differenc~·in being able to attack ~ase .... i"mmediately in fact or trying some und"!v9lo.ped attack on .. This page is a typed document featuring numbered paragraphs detailing statements made by various individuals. There are several large, black redactions obscuring portions of the text, particularly near the beginning and end of paragraphs. Additionally, there are handwritten annotations, including the letter "A" placed to the left of paragraphs 6, 8, and 9, and a small handwritten note "-3-" at the bottom center of the page, along with a drawing that appears to be a wavy line and a small dot. The overall impression is that of a declassified report where specific names and some details have been removed for security reasons. a fair chRnce of success appear to be pres~nt. The ~riter made non~ and has m~P·)i' :ng claims for the dru~-hypnosis techniqu~, 'hut pointed out t · .~hat there was a lot of differenc~·in being able to attack ~ase .... i"mmediately in fact or trying some und"!v9lo.ped attack on .. :-: a case '-lith possible disastrous results. ~-- 12. For a m:1tter of record,. the writer wislH!~nt out th:tt ••• 'Ill in many '-lays h!"! is in complete agre~ment wi ti~-- in;,oCar as e'xtensive res~arch and actual case wor . 3ary to :>olve the .. problem. Th~ writer do~s not agr~e with vtt unless va3t r'!- sP.arch is carried on, the project should oned. TI1.e ;.;ritcr feels that at all times, the Agenc:r, somewhere in its ramifications, should have l team of individuals capable on short netic~ of aprlying th~ "Artichok~" L ·, techniqu~ to-specific cases since it mcty well be that at any given mom~nt ·.~. .. ~supreme effort might have to be made to break a vital ca3e. The ~riter . I 1\ .;r . I •. \' \·- ;,1· i' . .; .~· . '· I . l t·. I •... "· . --~ ar;r'!~S with~h:lt a:J :\ m:1 tter: o!:' policy, th~ .1\~ency shotllJ co ahend and s~~r for, initiate ~nd assist larg~-scale research along "Artichoke11 lines. The 'tl'riter, h,.,.e11~r, is not at all ir-~press~d with talk of new techniqu~:> and ne•..,r drug'3 and what wond~rs 'rtould be ac complished by psychiatrists, H.D.s, sciontist~, etc., etc. Furthetn10re, the writer does not undP.rst:md why electro:;hock Lrea t.ment or techniques using lysergic acid should be reg!lrued a:; superior by anyone as com pared with thP. more familiar arn:rtal <tnd pentothal, etc. ·.vhila not i ·• totally successful, amytnl, pentothnl, etc. have at leM.st been u.s•?d with some success in the United States and els~wh~r~ artd'electroshock, lysergic treatrnen <> c. at pr~sent are little more than th~ories only. The writer to hat he person~ll7 supoorted tc matter and thM. t he along ·with and agreed that overseas work ~long tpe techniques. .; I 1u. In concluding the discu:;;sion,e dmitt.ed that the writer did see eye to eye with him on nany questions and although the writer attempted to m;;.ke it very cl~ar to him that policy was not his he is certain that this point is n~t clearly und~rstood by }-\ .. .. . · .. ... - ; The document is a single page of typed text with several handwritten annotations and redacting black ink marks. There are no photographs, forms, diagrams, tables, or official stamps visible. Black ink redactions are present in several locations throughout the text, obscuring specific names and details. Handwritten marginalia includes the letters "A" and "14-816" on the left side of the page. The page appears to be a continuation of a report or transcript, with numbered sections (10, 11, and 12) and continuous paragraphs of text. The image is a scanned document with handwritten annotations and obscured content. There are three handwritten annotations in the left margin, each appearing to be an "A". The text is dense and primarily consists of typewritten content, with some portions heavily redacted or obscured by black ink, particularly in the middle and bottom sections of the page. Vertical redactions are present on the right side of the page as well. There are no photographs, official stamps, forms, diagrams, or tables visible. The visual evidence primarily highlights areas of redaction, suggesting sensitive or classified information has been removed. that the writer did see eye to eye with him on nany questions and although the writer attempted to m;;.ke it very cl~ar to him that policy was not his he is certain that this point is n~t clearly und~rstood by }-\ .. .. . · .. ... - ; ...• ~ .. c.. ••• •. ~(~ f' l'~.· : " 1-:~Y~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~mE~ .o . $ .· \ ., 4/4 ;.3j ~ J.f Naturnl Causes ~,~/3 A ?) NoW' /-1 ~-~~~ Query--sho!-lld facts g up Are they of interest Probably yes. G- At any rate, we need knoW enough more about it to decide how much interest we have in it. A Above data to g~ven . . .. .. • • • • I,.. . , ' The document contains typewritten text and handwritten annotations. The title "Natural Causes" is visible at the top, along with a handwritten date range "A/B,4,23/24" and several notations like "A-B/3", "H-B/6", and "G". There are multiple areas of black redactions obscuring text, a common feature in declassified documents. Additionally, there are instances of the letter "A" written in large handwritten script. A section of text is prefaced with "Above data given to", followed by a redaction and "by". No photographs, diagrams, tables, or explicit evidence of experimental procedures are present.